[personal profile] aumentou
So... new WoD has crappy grappling rules. And I'm running a changeling game. So I've rewritten them. Anyone have any thoughts? I haven't finished the bit with multiple people grappling one.

Grapples:
In order to apply a grapple a combatant must have a limb configuration that lets them grapple. Ask the ST if you're in any doubt.

Acquiring a grapple in the first place is an opposed roll. The attackers pool is Dexterity plus Brawl. The defenders pool is Defence plus Brawl. If the defender is armed with a melee weapon they can substitute Weaponry for Brawl and in this case they can add the weapons equipment bonus to the pool. This means acquiring a grapple can be hard, particularly against armed opponents.

If a character attempts to grapple and fails then they have used their action this round (and count as attacking, so they may not dodge). If they succeed the attacker may immediately attempt a manoeuvre.
If someone is already in a grapple at their initiative step they may usually attempt a manoeuvre of their own. See below for the list of possible manoeuvres and the mechanics.

Note that most manoeuvres use a derived characteristic “Grappling Defence”. This is defined as:
Grappling Defence = higher of Strength and Dexterity.

A character who is already in a grapple at their initiative step may attempt to break free from the grapple instead of performing a manoeuvre. Breaking free is an opposed roll (unless your opponent chooses to let you go), using Grappling Defence plus Brawl on both sides (the person attempting to break free wins on ties, unless they scored zero successes). A character who breaks free may immediately act as normal, moving, attacking, etc, though with the caveat that they may not attempt to start another grapple this round. A character who fails to break free has used their action for the round.

Manoeuvres:

Resisted manoeuvres:
Each of these manoeuvres uses a base pool of Strength + Brawl – Grappling Defence.
Damage opponent: The attacker attempts to inflict damage, whether with teeth, a small weapon, punches, gouges, crushing... whatever, though large weapons (size >3) may not be used. Any physical attack made in a grapple is done with this manoeuvre, and inflicts damage of whatever type is appropriate equal to successes. Note that equipment bonuses for armour, weapons, teeth, etc can apply. Similarly, a two point bonus or penalty should apply if one party is standing and the other prone.
Move/push: A character must be standing to use this manoeuvre, The user attempts to push the grappled parties in a specific direction. Each success scored can move one person five steps, and can be spread over multiple people (rounding down for distance if necessary). The user does not need successes to move themselves. The whole grapple moves together.
Draw/pick up weapon: The user attempts to draw (or pick up) a small (size <3) weapon that is within reach. One or more successes indicates that they have drawn/picked up the weapon. If they are drawing a weapon and possess the appropriate Quick Draw merit they may then attempt another manoeuvre in the same round.

Opposed manoeuvres:
Each of these manoeuvres uses an opposed roll. The attacker rolls Strength plus Brawl, while the defender rolls Grappling Defence plus Brawl. If the attacker gains a greater number of successes then the manoeuvre is successful.
Disarm: Disarm removes a weapon or other item from an opponents hand. It drops to the floor. Turn weapon: Turn weapon may only be used on Small weapons (size <3), and other limits apply (ask the ST about the specific weapon). If successful then the attacker is now in control of the weapon (although it remains in the defenders hand) and may attack with the weapon as a manoeuvre in future. The defender can attempt their own turn weapon manoeuvre to regain control when it is their turn to act.
Take to floor: The attacker attempts to take themselves and the defender to the floor. If they are successful both become prone (they remain grappled).
Immobilise/pin: The attacker attempts to pin the defenders limbs tight and prevent them from taking any further offensive action. If successful a standing defender can only attempt to break free or a Move/push manoeuvre. A prone defender may only attempt to break free. The attacker must maintain the hold as their action each round in order for these effects to continue. Maintaining the hold does not require a new roll.
Throw: The attacker attempts to hurl the defender to the floor. If they succeed the defender may be moved a number of yards equal to the difference in number of successes in any direction, and is rendered prone. This attack does not cause damage, but the effects of the movement might, for example if the defender is thrown into a fire.

Advanced manoeuvres:
These manoeuvres use their own specific mechanics.
Send to floor:
The attacker attempts to render the defender prone whilst keeping a grip on them. The pool for this is Strength plus Brawl with a three point penalty vs Grappling Defence plus Brawl.
Drag to floor: This can only be used if the attacker is prone and the defender is standing. The attacker attempts to drag the defender to the floor. The pool for this is Strength plus Brawl with a two point penalty vs Grappling Defence plus Brawl.
Rise from floor: The user is attempting to rise from the floor while grappled. Success indicates they are now standing up, but still in a grapple. The other party/ies are not affected and remain prone if already prone. The user has a pool of Grappling Defence + Brawl vs Strength + Brawl, but the user loses on ties.

Equipment:
There isn't any readily available equipment that makes acquiring grapples or performing manoeuvres easier. Some magical equipment, powers, or contracts may be present in play at ST's direction.

Contracts in a grapple:
Some contracts may be activated in a grapple without penalty. Others may suffer a penalty or be impossible. Check the description and consult the ST.

Multiple-person grapples:

New merit:
Combat Roll (two dot simple merit, so 4xp)
prerequisites - dex 3, wits 3, brawl or athletics 3
If the character is prone but free to move (i.e., not grappled, tangled up in terrain, chained to a wall etc) they may reflexively make a dexterity + athletics roll to rise. They may not move any further after rising, but are otherwise free to act as normal.

Contract alteration:
The contract of Mirrors level 4 now has an extra option: grappling weapon. This could be a tentacle, a prehensile tail, or something similar. This grants a +2 to any grappling-related pool that includes Brawl.

Date: 2013-04-22 08:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] grok-mctanys.livejournal.com
Breaking free is an opposed roll (unless your opponent chooses to let you go), using Grappling Defence plus Brawl on both sides (the person attempting to break free wins on ties, unless they scored zero successes).

Seems inconsistent. I thought the convention for ties on opposed rolls was generally "status quo is maintained" - i.e. person trying to break free on their action does not succeed. In fact:
Each of these manoeuvres uses an opposed roll. The attacker rolls Strength plus Brawl, while the defender rolls Grappling Defence plus Brawl. If the attacker gains a greater number of successes then the manoeuvre is successful.

Even within these rules, the convention is that the character who is acting needs to beat their opponent to succeed.

Of course, if part of the brokenness of the original grappling rules is that they're overpowered because it's virtually impossible to escape a grapple, and this is an attempt to debuff grapples, then ignore the above. Although it might be worth adding a "rationale" footnote for the players.

Date: 2013-04-22 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mr-s-face.livejournal.com
It is inconsistent, and that is a bad thing although it was deliberate. Basically, I was looking to tip the odds in favour of the escapee. I suppose it would make more sense to tweak the dice pools in their favour but have them lose on ties.

"Of course, if part of the brokenness of the original grappling rules is that they're overpowered because it's virtually impossible to escape a grapple,..."

Part of, yes. To be honest, the original grapple rules are just awful, so I'm not going for a straightforward debuff (though some debuff is necessary).

In the original rules it's fairly easy to set up a character to be good at grappling, and once they get into a grapple with someone who isn't good at grappling they basically just win and the other character doesn't have any serious chance to escape. I'm trying to make grappling default to a less good option than striking, and also to scale the difficulty of the manoeuvres in accordance with how useful they are.

Date: 2013-04-23 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] grok-mctanys.livejournal.com
One thing that springs to mind, which you don't seem to have addressed, and I'm not sure what the original rules are, are your melee/brawl defenses when grappling/grappled against other attackers.

I would argue that the grappled and the grappler should count as having restricted movement (use "entangled" rules?) against any third character who wishes to attack either of them. A grappler does not have the same freedom of movement, which forms part of their base hit difficulty, while trying to maintain a hold on a resisting adversary of equivalent size. This gives a bonus to anyone with allies (hopefully PCs - don't split the party!) if they get grappled - their mates can simply gut the grappler from behind.

Thoughts?

Date: 2013-04-27 12:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mr-s-face.livejournal.com
Good thought. New addition: nobody in a grapple gets their defence against people outside the grapple. :-)

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aumentou

July 2016

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